Solar and Wind - The Challenges


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Recently a reader, Nadine,  posted a comment with a question which sparked my interest. Instead of a long and badly worded comment, I thought I would elevate the answer to her question to a fully fledged blog post. I think that the question is a valid one which is worthy of investigation here and is a question that I actually wanted answers to myself.

Nadine’s question was "could someone explain to me why it is difficult to adapt solar/wind technology to the existing grid?"


So I will attempt to explain in a very general way what the issues are regarding these two technologies and how they can fit into a total energy solution. Now there is a lot of (mis)information readily found on the Internet regarding wind and solar, so we will try and stay away from those sources and concentrate on the simplest explanations wherever possible - there are probably hundreds of other points good and bad that can be made and I am sure our educated readers will happily pass on their knowledge in the comments section below.

The power industry faces a couple of problems from the variable natural inputs concept. The first is that of peak loads, and the second is that of reliable continual power generation. Solar obviously works best in clear skies and direct sunlight with clouds and other weather severely impacting generation, wind has the same problem. No wind, or low wind, equals no/low power generation. Depending on the type of technology it produces low voltage DC power that must be converted to AC at a very high voltage to feed the grid. However, some solutions such as Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) use a normal generator and can plug right into the grid, one example being the Solar One installation in Nevada.

Peak Loads, Increasing Demand and Constant Supply

The power grid itself is part of the problem in deploying renewable generation from solar and wind - it hates fluctuation in power inputs. The system is not nimble enough to react to demands and inputs fast enough to deal with the sudden drops that pure wind and photovoltaic solar experience due to changes in weather. Anyone who has experienced electrical grid power fluctuations during peak load periods can attest to how incredibly damaging it can be to electronics and electrical systems as they are exposed to inconsistent power levels which cause oscillations that can result in widespread grid failures.

The introduction of PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles) will further increase overall demand for electrical energy, as will changes in manufacturing as companies update to newer more automated and complex green technologies in an effort to reduce emissions. This rush to reduce emissions by the consumer and industry will create demand that will far outpace production and create longer peak periods that will put additional stress on the grid system.

The magic of electricity is in the constant supply of power to the end user. This is achieved through a load balancing system, we know as the grid, that diverts electricity to areas of demand. The limitation is that all grid management systems use a constant input model to correctly anticipate and divert electricity. Currently, renewable production cannot provide this constant supply without some form of assistance, such as the CSP generators that are coupled with gas heaters to supplement power generation in poor weather. Alternatively, wind installations will commit to far lower power input levels equal to the sustainable minimum generation over a period of time. You may have a 30Mw wind farm, but you would commit to 20Mw of sustainable delivery to allow for fluctuations in generation.

There is plenty of information available at the US Department of Energy on the challenges faced and the solutions required.

Looking to the Future

There is a kind of holy grail in renewables from variable generation sources, that is the ability to capture and store the generated excess power during high production periods. The problem here is that the only way to store this energy is in another form. Batteries can assist in load balancing, but currently do not have the capacity for sustained output, so the energy must be converted to another form for storage and use later.

Some proposed solutions include storage of excess electricity as heat energy, others suggest using the power to pump water up to a storage area for use in hydro generators. The ultimate problem is in generating enough excess to produce enough stored energy to satisfactorily compensate during low production periods. These problems can be solved - but we are not there yet.

In the end we currently cannot rely on wind or solar power to provide the base load power for the grid. Wind and solar is great for use in variable supplemental power generation that can be brought on-line to help with peak load periods or power low load times (which will be coming less as demand grows).

These two technologies are not new and have been proven to not be commercially viable as a primary energy source during the past 30 years of development. I know that everyone has read the green stories about people using solar and wind to power their homes without problems, what you do not read is that most of these people are connected to the grid as well to provide the additional power they require - without a stable and reliable fall-back power source they would not find it so easy to rely on their micro generation systems.

A final issue that I would like to address is that one of applicable feasibility. Not every region in the world can support these technologies, it requires a wind corridor and /or a favourable sunny climate to generate power from these sources. This severely limits where these solutions can be deployed and be successful, so as a primary solution they are not universal in their application.

There are many other technologies that need to be explored and enhanced to create a feasible pool of technologies that can be used in a variety of situations, but just calling for solar and wind is not going to solve the world’s energy problems on a global scale.

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Reader Comments

You know I agree with you on the whole, I would like to add a few bits though.

The feasible pool of technologies includes solar thermal and ground source heat pumps. The former of course has similar problems to PV, while the latter actually requires some electrical input. But despite the relative lack of sun in the UK, these technologies are being successfully deployed. Biomass boilers, and biomass fired micro-CHP, while problematic in the UK right now - much of which relates to lack of standards for pellet production and sale - also show some potential. Micro-scale water generation is an option for some.

These technologies can be invaluable to the fuel poor, providing independent decentralised and almost cost-free energy.

See e.g. csep.co.uk. One of the fun things they have been doing is taking used chip-fat from local fish’n'chip shops and using it for a fleet of diesel taxis. Another innovative project in the pipeline is using heat from local mines. There are probably a million innovative and feasible small-scale ways to re-use, reduce and recycle. Combined with efficiencies (insulation, passive etc) and behavioural change, and localised (city-wide where necessary) district heating and cooling from gas-fired CHP these measures can reduce CO2 emissions to well within the 60% requirement with relatively little fuss and bother.

The gas-fired district heating could of course be retrofitted with waste incinerators and even nuclear reactors, although I am still not convinced that nuclear is a necessary long-term solution to domestic energy demand (despite my upcoming blog).

Why? In a word, money.

When it’s financially feasible, then it will happen. Right now Boeing is working on how to deploy the solar panels they use in space, here on earth. The goal is to replace 20% of California’s energy in 3 years.

WRT Comment 1: If we drained every fish-n-chip fryer in the world every day, how many cabs would be powered? I suspect it would be an astonishingly small percentage.

WRT Comment 2: One major difference between solar panel viability in space vs. on earth is, in a word, clouds. Until they can extract more energy from a cloudy day they’re a long ways from being a viable alternative (especially coupled with high cost / watt and relatively short life.)

+++TAKE ALL THE OIL OUT of Gaia++

or the motor and the heating and cooling complexities of the internal motor’s now empty cavities will change and spread the heat to new unforgiving surfaces causing collapse and flexing and swelling of the normally safe consistent, ore made structure , thus effecting the surrounding motors water flows.

Water and core Temperatures spike in spots with fast or slow motor rotation in unexpected areas due to cavity or thickness of spaces or water cycle inside water system due to season(climate) out side of motor(in that area).

-speed up motor with no oil to cool faster?
Or slow it down!! And add more oil.

Some body should REALLY Look at ground temperatures in the depleted oil areas and think maybe it is hot water there because there not oil there in addition to the normal equator heat. Maybe oil was formed there because it is a hot spot naturally . Maybe planet will cool around the same time oil reforms there again??? should we pump it out again at that time?

Kind of funny that the water in those areas is hot now and in adjacent areas the heat is up all compounding the tempreture in the the cab as the 2nd dary systems fail from the spikes in heat? We are looking at the water and saying speed it up!!to cool it , put more air on it make it more effcient water!! as coolant (algae)

Better put oil back I think.

Not take away cold water or put cold water on faster cycle that is now on slow cycle ???? or heat will go up and
seconday system will worsen!
Example Pump gas out of Indonesian shelf and it collapses making things out of balance across whole region.

No way to fix now better pump rest out? of remaining shelf?
Think put oil back in!! Cool Again!!

hot Water spikes go away with slower revs And oil back in not faster with no oil in

it just compounds to blow the radiator or soft point like the hose then blow the engine.
Then she’s all stopped for good.
4 sure this Gaia motor needs a good mechanic!! May even need heavier oil than before to reduce heat! Dan

I would like all seeking a solution out there to circulate this to every one of any importance on presenting it as one more thing we should be doing and looking at!!!!!!

P.S We are all stressing out about
methan releases , what happens when all the co2 gas they are pumping into oil cavities to stablize cardon credits comes back out in one day after pumping it down there for 20 years from now!!!!!!!! thats when you get a surprize!!boom gas instead of oil in hotspot@!!! read forever
Mb + 66 89 909 3178

#3: “WRT Comment 1: If we drained every fish-n-chip fryer in the world every day, how many cabs would be powered? I suspect it would be an astonishingly small percentage.”

Er, yes? I believe the fleet in Cornwall numbers around 6 at present. I suspect there are more than 6 cabs in the whole of Cornwall.

[…] the answer to her question to a fully fledged blog post. I think that the question is a validhttp://www.talkclimatechange.com/2008/04/16/solar-and-wind-the-challenges/Presenters amp up energy study Advance Titan???We??re at a crossroads,??? said Steve Arndt, Director […]

The goal is to replace 20% of California’s energy in 3 years.

I have lived in California, for almost 8 years from 1999 until 2007, si I am very familiar with the power situation in the summer months. Rolling blackouts are not uncommon.

If they replaced the power system with 20% PV the grid would collapse.

See if you can follow me along, the energy demand outlook for California is currently 33% increase by 2015 (read 33% more electricity than now, due to PHEV and EV demands ) the current generation capacity is -25%, with 25% of power coming from out of the state via the grid. So installing 20% solar would be the equivilent of installing over 110% of current generation capacity in state.

This is because solar produces over diurnal oscillations about 30% of rated output, so in order to provide 1Gw you would need to install almost 4GW of capacity.

This over capacity building is what makes solar so expensive, plus you need the above mentioned holy grail of energy storage. These have been worked on for 30 years without a solution so do not hold your breath.

Money is not the issue here companies like GE and as you say Boeing have tons of it, it has to do with feasibility.

[…] has been written on TalkClimateChange of the challenges associated with the mass adoption of renewable […]