TalkClimateChange

Red Team,

As someone living in China, and following the sustainable movement, I think that the biggest lesson for the U.K., U.S., and other high per capita consumers is that China’s people consume less than 25% of what the average American does.

Sure, China has its problems, but as they continue to bring online the largest wind farms, manufacturer and install the most solar panels, and develop new battery technologies, the limelight will once again shift to the West.

R
http://www.china-crossroads.com

Yes China is moving rapidly, it is one benefit of having a Industrial Revolution 100 years after the west. I personally believe China will leave the west far behind in renewable energy utilization as a percentage of production moving forward, but at the same time surpass the western emissions of CO2 overall, because they have one major resource and one major demand, and both are population.
Combine that with a government structure that can bring that resource to bear on any priority, without the cumbersome process that is western democracy and a free market. They will surpass us just because of directed focus and necessity.
Also I firmly believe that the claim of 25% less consumption is a purposely misleading statement. In the major cities of China people are consuming almost on par with the west after applying the HDI Index to segements of the population.
Having a major portion of your population living a subsistence existence does not mean that you get to claim a good per Capita record.
China has a HDI ( UN Human Development Index ) ranking of 88 compared to Canada, for example, with an HDI rank of 4, you can appreciate why our per Capita consumption is higher.
China will develop technologies faster because of need and demand, that is a fact, but they will expand their CO2 emissions on a parallel scale, because that technology is available and inexpensive, and the only way to keep up with the pace of the demand.
I am very frustrated with the attitude that a large “without” population somehow gets you a pass.

You are right. Having a large percentage of your population living in abject poverty is not a solution to sustainability.

Still, there are some marked differences between resource usage even in the Western world in instances where there are inverse relationships in standard of living indices.

But we do always need to be careful with all these statistics.

Heretic,

I was not giving China a “pass”. I was simply pointing out that perhaps Brown should have learned something about how the Chinese are at 25%.

I have spent the last 6 years in Beijing and Shanghai, I am can safely say that the HDI does not apply here, and that the average citizens in no way consume what their counterparts around the world do.

What I believe does get China a “pass”. or at least a reason to think about a “pass” system, is that a large part of the GHGs come from coal plants powering inefficient and polluting manufacturing facilities that are exporting goods to the world. Many of these factories have global (not Chinese brands).

In the end, I am giving no one any passes. We are all to blame, but through my experiences I have come to a couple conclusions, and one is that China is headed in the right direction, and there are things we can learn from here.

Anyway, too big for the comments section. Hope you’ll come by Crossroads to see more China coverage.

R
http://www.china-crossroads.com

My point still stands, if you overlay the consumption numbers by internal population sorted by standard of living and relative income levels in ANY country you will see what I am talking about.

Simply take the HDI calculation and apply it to the population groups by income and you will see a direct correlation between standard of living and consumption. The percentage of your population in each group determines your overall consumption level.

R,
Safely say that the HDI does not apply here? The United Nations Human Development Index applies everywhere, it is the primary rating system of the quality of life in the world.

Heretic,

Sorry. My post was poorly written, and I actually asked to have it before you shot right through it… I knew it was coming.

Sure, the people in Shanghai are consuming more than in Huai’An, but there is not a statistical table that captures that accurately.. HDI or otherwise. PArtly because the statistics are whacky, and partly because applying a template like that on a society in China is just not feasible. There are 31 provinces, 5 different provinces, and 1.5 billion people that are all at very different stages of development, and what numbers would you use. Do you include the 4-6 million migrant families living in Shanghai or do you use stated numbers from the Statistics Bureau? (Case in point of the inability of measuring things in China…the World Bank needed to readjust their China GDP figures by 30%)

My initial post was not meant to give anyone a pass, but as someone living in China I appreciate the fact that the Chinese government over the last few years has become more and more critical of what needs to be changed.. and is making the changes. The last year has been a turning point in many ways (Case in point: recent public dialog in Xiamen), and I believe the progress will only continue to occur. The government is very actively promoting technology, and while the main problem is local enforcement, that too will come in time.

From the everyday perspective, I still see where the Chinese have much less waste into the system that the U.S. The average person does not drive a car, they do not own 3 TVs, they are not eating much out of a box, etc, etc. This may change over time, but where China is on the path to 18% renewable by 2020, the U.S. is only now targeting 15%… and the real investments that we are seeing in China in wind, water, etc are not happening on the scale of the US.

That aside, what role does recycling play into the standard consumption equations? After all, China has one of the highest percentages of recycling in the world.. and that means less overall consumption of virgin materials. So how does that play? Should we focus on end user consumption (TV p/ capita) or possibly should we begin looking at the fact that 99.9% of the TVs in China are recycled into something else and that reduces the overall industrial consumption? Questions I am myself unsure of how to measure…

Anyway, just some perspective and questions. China is at times one of the filthiest places there is, but there is a lot to hold onto when looking for hope as well. I see China taking the right steps, and moving in the right direction, and that is where I think Brown and Bush need to start learning… cause I do not see the same momentum in the U.S. or U.K.

Everyone has more to do, no one should be issued a pass, statistics should be used carefully, and in the end it is dialogs like this that will probably be shown as more constructive than Brown coming to China and offering advice on clean energy.

R

I agree with everything you say about China, except that coal is used to power export production, without exports the Chinese economy would be much different, but that is another whole issue. They ( the Chinese) are doing it faster and better than other countries. As I stated in my post they will surpass the west easily on renewables, yet they will also surpass us in emissions. They have no choice the demand for energy is far too high.

Well Pass Everyone except Canada.

OECD Renewables by Percentage